Sagesse
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Commander
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{"ops":[{"insert":"Let's do some meth. \n*cough cough* math...\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Millennium Calendar"},{"insert":" ({Deepglow Skate + [Displacer Kitten or Myojin of Cryptic Dreams]} or {Zimone, Paradox Sculptor + Freed From the Real})\n\nThere are four ways to actively double counters in this deck: Vorel, the other Zimone, Deepglow Skate, and the MC itself.\nMy question is, where is a good time to stop counting untap triggers and start only caring about doubling? Which numbers are important thresholds to achieve?\n\nLets organize this in four cases: 0, 1, 2, or More doublers.\n\nCase 1 (No doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nMillennium Calendar requires ~2^10 counters on it. It starts at 2^0, and needs to be doubled 10 times. \n1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32 -> 64 -> 128 -> 256 -> 512 -> 1024\nBy untapping permanents during our untap phase, we can skip some early doubling steps. For instance, it is easier to additively turn 4 into 8 this way than it is to turn 128 into 250.\nThe fastest route to 1000 would be doubling 500, doubling 250, doubling 125, then ~63 (62.5), then ~32 (31.25), then ~16... and thus we demonstrate 2^10 is the fastest path and \nwe can just aim for powers of 2 breakpoints when untapping and miss the triggers otherwise for ease of play. \nI imagine that somewhere around 32 (5 steps away) counting these triggers becomes trivial, and either a doubling mechanism is found or that route to victory should be abandoned.\n\nCase 2 (1 Doubler):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nDoubling Season makes things weird. It only doubles new tokens. For example, 32 doubled with Doubling Season in play results in 64 + 32 = 96 counters. Wacky.\nThat's just 32 times 3, so we can reassess our breakpoints with Doubling Season in play using a base of 3: \nAssuming no untap triggers: 1 -> 3 -> 9 -> 27 -> 81 -> 243 -> 729 -> 2187\nThat's 3^7 and we start at 3^0. So we'll need to triple 7 times. (I am aware that if a doubler is already in play, the MC enters with a trivial number of extra counters.)\n7 steps and an absolute "},{"attributes":{"italic":true},"insert":"travesty"},{"insert":" of extra counters.\nIdeally, we want to triple the smallest possible number and that means turning 334 into 1002. Let's work backwards, rounding all fractions up.\n112 triples into 336 \n38 triples into 114 \n13 triples into 39 \n5 triples into 15 \nBut recall that it's easier to untap permanents to bypass the smaller steps, and with Doubling Season, we add 2 counters per untap. \nWith that in mind, I'd say the timing to start ignoring untap triggers is now 38,\nmeaning 38 -> 114 -> 342 -> 1026 \nWhich is 3 steps away instead of the 5 steps from the scenario without Doubling Season.\n\nDoubling Season entering or leaving play simply moves us between the tracks of either 2^x or 3^x. \nBy playing Doubling Season at the correct time, we can remove 2 full steps from the process.\n\nCase 3 (2 Doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nIn the case where we have both Doubling Season and Innkeeper's Talent operating simultaneously, let's see what happens when we \"double\" 32 again.\n32 becomes 64, then Doubling Season adds 32 more (64 extra tokens) and Innkeeper's Talent doubles all of those, adding 64 more. That means 32 becomes 160.\nThat's just 32 times 5, so we can look at the patterns at base 5.\n1 -> 5 -> 25 -> 125 -> 625 -> 3125\nThat means 5^5 is our target and we start at 5^0. We'll need to quintuple 5 times (funny!)\nWe are drastically overshooting again.\nThe target we want for seamless win is 200 quintupling into 1000. Going backwards from 200 reveals a quick pattern.\n40 quintuples into 200\n8 quintuples into 40\nWe add 4 tokens per untap with both doublers in play. Untapping a meager 2 permanents gets us within 3 \"doubles\" of winning, and untapping 10 leaves us 2 \"doubles\" away.\nI'd say the breakpoint is 40, but it looks like we could just basically start whenever we want\n\nTo summarize, we can start ignoring untap triggers around 32 counters for no Doubling Season effects, 38 with one, and 40 with 2. \nThese are all fairly close together and allow us to cast a doubler mid process to speed things along.\n\nCase 4 (More Doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nWe could use Myojin of Cryptic Dreams to create extra Doubling Seasons. These new ones, of course, would be doubled by the original.\nSo Myojin would make 6 (6 = 3 * 2^1) extra Doubling Seasons for the first counter removed, then 384 more (3 * 2^7) for the second counter and then 3 * 2^391 or ~1.5 e118 for the third and so on. \nWith an Unsummon reseting the Myojin with 2^1e118 counters, we could theoretically create more Displacer Kittens than a human mind can comprehend...\nWe have reached Infinite Kitten and that's the true victory.\n\nI'll leave the Millennium Calendar calculations in those situations as an exercise for the reader.\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Lab Man"},{"insert":" (Greater Good + {Ominous Seas or Body of Research})\n\nSacrificing an Ominous Seas kraken to Greater Good draws 8 cards and creates another Ominous Seas kraken. \nThis loop draws the deck, discarding along the way. Hopefully we draw and cast the Lab Man somewhere in there before the deck empties. \nWorldly Tutor can help here unless it, too, is in the very bottom of the deck. So we might need to stop right before the edge of the abyss.\nEven if we need to abandon the Lab Man route to victory, we can just play the Reliquary Tower or the Thought Vessel and have an enormous hand full of great stuff.\n\nAdditionally, there are numerous ways to sacrifice Body of Research and pick up the deck. Without Lab Man already in play, this frightens and terrifies me.\nIf we are hoping to draw and play Lab Man as part of this effect, well... Live fast. Die young. \n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Helix Pinnacle"},{"insert":"\n\nThis is a very similar win to The Millennium Calendar. I added this and Omnath, Locus of Mana in the case that Freed From The Real ends up on Selvala. \nFreed was not intended as an infinite mana combo, but there it is. \nHelix Pinnacle is about the fairest mana sink I could think of in the narrow case this line of play manifests in a game.\nI want people to see my wins coming. \nThrasios is a well known cEDH commander if people want that kind of simic deck.\n\nIn the case we engage legitimately with this win condition, here is the relevant math:\nThis is much like MC above but we need to survive a turn cycle at 100 counters. \nIt is also easier to make minor corrections before doubling by simply sinking 1 mana. This will be represented by the\"+X\" in the patterns below \n\n0+3 -> 6 -> 12 -> 24 +1 -> 50 -> 100\n\nMost doubling effects cost 2 mana, so efficiency begins by doubling 3 into 6.\nWith a single Doubling Season effect, spending 2 mana to get started yields 4 counters and counters are tripled:\n\n0+2 (4) -> 12 -> 36 -> 108\n\nWith Doubling Season and Innkeeper's Talent, each mana adds 4 counters and existing counters are quintupled:\n\n0+1 (4) -> 20 -> 100\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through face-punch"},{"insert":"\n\nWe are a big green deck after all.\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Simic Ascendency"},{"insert":"? \n\nI'm not sure this actually ever happens, but the deck vomits counters, so why not?\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Gifts Ungiven idea"},{"insert":": \n\nEternal Witness, Displacer Kitten, 2 pieces of a win condition.\n\n\nHave Fun!\n\n\n11/11/26: A little refresher. Added Darksteel Reactor and some other things. Made some further edits for Seedborn Muse and D'vana Tendi. This make Millennium Calendar more of an ambush. Add other bracket 3 cards. I think the bracket 4 estimate is a little silly. We'll see with testing.\n"}]}
Zimone, All-Questioning
At the beginning of your end step, if a land entered the battlefield under your control this turn and you control a prime number of lands, create Primo, the Indivisible, a legendary 0/0 green and blue Fractal creature token, then put that many +1/+1 counters on it. (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, and 31 are prime numbers.)
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Commander
(Ctrl to add secondary)
Deadeye Navigator
Soulbond (You may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters. They remain paired for as long as you control both of them.)
As long as Deadeye Navigator is paired with another creature, each of those creatures has ": Exile this creature, then return it to the battlefield under your control."
As long as Deadeye Navigator is paired with another creature, each of those creatures has ": Exile this creature, then return it to the battlefield under your control."
Creature - Spirit
Blink
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Doubling Season
If an effect would create one or more tokens under your control, it creates twice that many of those tokens instead.
If an effect would put one or more counters on a permanent you control, it puts twice that many of those counters on that permanent instead.
If an effect would put one or more counters on a permanent you control, it puts twice that many of those counters on that permanent instead.
Enchantment
Innkeeper's Talent
(Gain the next level as a sorcery to add its ability.)
At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control.
: Level 2
Permanents you control with counters on them have ward .
: Level 3
If you would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, put twice that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead.
At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control.
: Level 2
Permanents you control with counters on them have ward .
: Level 3
If you would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, put twice that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead.
Enchantment - Class
Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider
Trample, haste
If you would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, put twice that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead.
If an opponent would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, they put half that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead, rounded down.
If you would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, put twice that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead.
If an opponent would put one or more counters on a permanent or player, they put half that many of each of those kinds of counters on that permanent or player instead, rounded down.
Legendary Creature - Praetor Phyrexian
Doubler
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Chandra, Chill of Compliance
+1: Surveil 1. If you put a noncreature, nonland card into your graveyard this way, put that card into your hand.
+1: Add . Spend this mana only to cast a noncreature spell.
−X: Tap target artifact or creature. Put X stun counters on it.
−6: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, draw a card."
+1: Add . Spend this mana only to cast a noncreature spell.
−X: Tap target artifact or creature. Put X stun counters on it.
−6: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, draw a card."
Legendary Planeswalker - Chandra
Draw
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Simic Ascendancy
: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control.
Whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on a creature you control, put that many growth counters on this enchantment.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if this enchantment has twenty or more growth counters on it, you win the game.
Whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on a creature you control, put that many growth counters on this enchantment.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if this enchantment has twenty or more growth counters on it, you win the game.
Enchantment
The Millennium Calendar
Whenever you untap one or more permanents during your untap step, put that many time counters on The Millennium Calendar.
, : Double the number of time counters on The Millennium Calendar.
When there are 1,000 or more time counters on The Millennium Calendar, sacrifice it and each opponent loses 1,000 life.
, : Double the number of time counters on The Millennium Calendar.
When there are 1,000 or more time counters on The Millennium Calendar, sacrifice it and each opponent loses 1,000 life.
Legendary Artifact
Finisher
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Boseiju, Who Endures
: Add .
Channel — , Discard this card: Destroy target artifact, enchantment, or nonbasic land an opponent controls. That player may search their library for a land card with a basic land type, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle. This ability costs less to activate for each legendary creature you control.
Channel — , Discard this card: Destroy target artifact, enchantment, or nonbasic land an opponent controls. That player may search their library for a land card with a basic land type, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle. This ability costs less to activate for each legendary creature you control.
Legendary Land
Urza's Saga
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
I — This Saga gains ": Add ."
II — This Saga gains ", : Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with 'This token gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control.'"
III — Search your library for an artifact card with mana cost or , put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle.
I — This Saga gains ": Add ."
II — This Saga gains ", : Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with 'This token gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control.'"
III — Search your library for an artifact card with mana cost or , put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle.
Land Enchantment - Saga Urza's
Land
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Tamiyo's Safekeeping
Target permanent you control gains hexproof and indestructible until end of turn. You gain 2 life. (A permanent with hexproof and indestructible can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control. Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy it.)
Instant
Protection
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Entish Restoration
Sacrifice a land. Search your library for up to two basic land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle. If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, instead search your library for up to three basic land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle.
Instant
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
Whenever another creature enters, its controller may draw a card if its power is greater than each other creature's power.
, : Add X mana in any combination of colors, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control.
, : Add X mana in any combination of colors, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control.
Legendary Creature - Elf Scout
The Eternity Elevator
: Add .
Station (Tap another creature you control: Put charge counters equal to its power on this Spacecraft. Station only as a sorcery.)
20+ | : Add X mana of any one color, where X is the number of charge counters on The Eternity Elevator.
Station (Tap another creature you control: Put charge counters equal to its power on this Spacecraft. Station only as a sorcery.)
20+ | : Add X mana of any one color, where X is the number of charge counters on The Eternity Elevator.
Legendary Artifact - Spacecraft
Ramp
(Ctrl to add secondary)
Recursion
(Ctrl to add secondary)
Basilisk Collar
Equipped creature has deathtouch and lifelink. (Any amount of damage it deals to a creature is enough to destroy it. Damage dealt by this creature also causes you to gain that much life.)
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
Artifact - Equipment
Removal
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Tokens
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Untap
(Ctrl to add secondary)
Deck Info
Deck stats
CategoriesQtyOdds
Click charts to focus on cards
Deck extras (0)
Description
{"ops":[{"insert":"Let's do some meth. \n*cough cough* math...\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Millennium Calendar"},{"insert":" ({Deepglow Skate + [Displacer Kitten or Myojin of Cryptic Dreams]} or {Zimone, Paradox Sculptor + Freed From the Real})\n\nThere are four ways to actively double counters in this deck: Vorel, the other Zimone, Deepglow Skate, and the MC itself.\nMy question is, where is a good time to stop counting untap triggers and start only caring about doubling? Which numbers are important thresholds to achieve?\n\nLets organize this in four cases: 0, 1, 2, or More doublers.\n\nCase 1 (No doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nMillennium Calendar requires ~2^10 counters on it. It starts at 2^0, and needs to be doubled 10 times. \n1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32 -> 64 -> 128 -> 256 -> 512 -> 1024\nBy untapping permanents during our untap phase, we can skip some early doubling steps. For instance, it is easier to additively turn 4 into 8 this way than it is to turn 128 into 250.\nThe fastest route to 1000 would be doubling 500, doubling 250, doubling 125, then ~63 (62.5), then ~32 (31.25), then ~16... and thus we demonstrate 2^10 is the fastest path and \nwe can just aim for powers of 2 breakpoints when untapping and miss the triggers otherwise for ease of play. \nI imagine that somewhere around 32 (5 steps away) counting these triggers becomes trivial, and either a doubling mechanism is found or that route to victory should be abandoned.\n\nCase 2 (1 Doubler):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nDoubling Season makes things weird. It only doubles new tokens. For example, 32 doubled with Doubling Season in play results in 64 + 32 = 96 counters. Wacky.\nThat's just 32 times 3, so we can reassess our breakpoints with Doubling Season in play using a base of 3: \nAssuming no untap triggers: 1 -> 3 -> 9 -> 27 -> 81 -> 243 -> 729 -> 2187\nThat's 3^7 and we start at 3^0. So we'll need to triple 7 times. (I am aware that if a doubler is already in play, the MC enters with a trivial number of extra counters.)\n7 steps and an absolute "},{"attributes":{"italic":true},"insert":"travesty"},{"insert":" of extra counters.\nIdeally, we want to triple the smallest possible number and that means turning 334 into 1002. Let's work backwards, rounding all fractions up.\n112 triples into 336 \n38 triples into 114 \n13 triples into 39 \n5 triples into 15 \nBut recall that it's easier to untap permanents to bypass the smaller steps, and with Doubling Season, we add 2 counters per untap. \nWith that in mind, I'd say the timing to start ignoring untap triggers is now 38,\nmeaning 38 -> 114 -> 342 -> 1026 \nWhich is 3 steps away instead of the 5 steps from the scenario without Doubling Season.\n\nDoubling Season entering or leaving play simply moves us between the tracks of either 2^x or 3^x. \nBy playing Doubling Season at the correct time, we can remove 2 full steps from the process.\n\nCase 3 (2 Doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nIn the case where we have both Doubling Season and Innkeeper's Talent operating simultaneously, let's see what happens when we \"double\" 32 again.\n32 becomes 64, then Doubling Season adds 32 more (64 extra tokens) and Innkeeper's Talent doubles all of those, adding 64 more. That means 32 becomes 160.\nThat's just 32 times 5, so we can look at the patterns at base 5.\n1 -> 5 -> 25 -> 125 -> 625 -> 3125\nThat means 5^5 is our target and we start at 5^0. We'll need to quintuple 5 times (funny!)\nWe are drastically overshooting again.\nThe target we want for seamless win is 200 quintupling into 1000. Going backwards from 200 reveals a quick pattern.\n40 quintuples into 200\n8 quintuples into 40\nWe add 4 tokens per untap with both doublers in play. Untapping a meager 2 permanents gets us within 3 \"doubles\" of winning, and untapping 10 leaves us 2 \"doubles\" away.\nI'd say the breakpoint is 40, but it looks like we could just basically start whenever we want\n\nTo summarize, we can start ignoring untap triggers around 32 counters for no Doubling Season effects, 38 with one, and 40 with 2. \nThese are all fairly close together and allow us to cast a doubler mid process to speed things along.\n\nCase 4 (More Doublers):"},{"attributes":{"list":"bullet"},"insert":"\n"},{"insert":"\nWe could use Myojin of Cryptic Dreams to create extra Doubling Seasons. These new ones, of course, would be doubled by the original.\nSo Myojin would make 6 (6 = 3 * 2^1) extra Doubling Seasons for the first counter removed, then 384 more (3 * 2^7) for the second counter and then 3 * 2^391 or ~1.5 e118 for the third and so on. \nWith an Unsummon reseting the Myojin with 2^1e118 counters, we could theoretically create more Displacer Kittens than a human mind can comprehend...\nWe have reached Infinite Kitten and that's the true victory.\n\nI'll leave the Millennium Calendar calculations in those situations as an exercise for the reader.\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Lab Man"},{"insert":" (Greater Good + {Ominous Seas or Body of Research})\n\nSacrificing an Ominous Seas kraken to Greater Good draws 8 cards and creates another Ominous Seas kraken. \nThis loop draws the deck, discarding along the way. Hopefully we draw and cast the Lab Man somewhere in there before the deck empties. \nWorldly Tutor can help here unless it, too, is in the very bottom of the deck. So we might need to stop right before the edge of the abyss.\nEven if we need to abandon the Lab Man route to victory, we can just play the Reliquary Tower or the Thought Vessel and have an enormous hand full of great stuff.\n\nAdditionally, there are numerous ways to sacrifice Body of Research and pick up the deck. Without Lab Man already in play, this frightens and terrifies me.\nIf we are hoping to draw and play Lab Man as part of this effect, well... Live fast. Die young. \n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Helix Pinnacle"},{"insert":"\n\nThis is a very similar win to The Millennium Calendar. I added this and Omnath, Locus of Mana in the case that Freed From The Real ends up on Selvala. \nFreed was not intended as an infinite mana combo, but there it is. \nHelix Pinnacle is about the fairest mana sink I could think of in the narrow case this line of play manifests in a game.\nI want people to see my wins coming. \nThrasios is a well known cEDH commander if people want that kind of simic deck.\n\nIn the case we engage legitimately with this win condition, here is the relevant math:\nThis is much like MC above but we need to survive a turn cycle at 100 counters. \nIt is also easier to make minor corrections before doubling by simply sinking 1 mana. This will be represented by the\"+X\" in the patterns below \n\n0+3 -> 6 -> 12 -> 24 +1 -> 50 -> 100\n\nMost doubling effects cost 2 mana, so efficiency begins by doubling 3 into 6.\nWith a single Doubling Season effect, spending 2 mana to get started yields 4 counters and counters are tripled:\n\n0+2 (4) -> 12 -> 36 -> 108\n\nWith Doubling Season and Innkeeper's Talent, each mana adds 4 counters and existing counters are quintupled:\n\n0+1 (4) -> 20 -> 100\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through face-punch"},{"insert":"\n\nWe are a big green deck after all.\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Win through Simic Ascendency"},{"insert":"? \n\nI'm not sure this actually ever happens, but the deck vomits counters, so why not?\n\n\n"},{"attributes":{"underline":true,"bold":true},"insert":"Gifts Ungiven idea"},{"insert":": \n\nEternal Witness, Displacer Kitten, 2 pieces of a win condition.\n\n\nHave Fun!\n\n\n11/11/26: A little refresher. Added Darksteel Reactor and some other things. Made some further edits for Seedborn Muse and D'vana Tendi. This make Millennium Calendar more of an ambush. Add other bracket 3 cards. I think the bracket 4 estimate is a little silly. We'll see with testing.\n"}]}